#8 - Unju Mann - The sacred unbecoming: finding grace in the ayahuasca brew

Ayahuasca gets talked about like a trend, but the reasons people seek it are rarely trendy: grief that won’t lift, patterns that won’t break, pain that keeps finding new places to hide. I sit down with Unju Mann to hear her story of losing her mother, sliding into nightly autopilot drinking, and eventually saying yes to a first ceremony in Peru after months of research and hard honesty.

We get specific about what an ayahuasca retreat can actually look like, from the ritual container and the shaman’s role to why the room can feel both magical and intense. Unju explains purging in plain terms and why many traditions see it as release rather than “getting sick.” We also talk about surrender, what resistance looks like when fear takes over, and how the medicine can bring long-buried memories and emotional blocks into view so they can finally be processed.

The theme that keeps coming back is integration. We explore how insights translate into real life: gratitude journaling, prayer, diet changes, more stillness, less noise, and better choices when you’re stuck in traffic or dealing with family stress. If you’re searching for grounded guidance on ayahuasca healing, plant medicine safety, ethical retreats, and psychedelic integration, this conversation offers a clear place to start. If it resonates, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

Transcript

Why Ayahuasca Draws People In

Peter Kolakovic 0:00

Hi everyone, welcome back to the show. My name is Peter and I'm your host. In recent years, ayahuasca has emerged as a popular choice for individuals seeking healing and understanding in their lives. As more and more people turn to plant medicine for help, it raises the question: what drives someone to seek out this transformative experience? In this episode, we delve into the insights shared by Unju Man, who reflects on her own personal journey with ayahuasca and how it has reshaped her understanding of healing. If you're not familiar with ayahuasca, it's a traditional Amazonian brew recognized for its incredible therapeutic benefits. Many individuals are drawn to it out of a desire to confront personal pain and suffering. Unju's experience provides a compelling narrative of how her struggles with addiction and grief led her to seek ayahuasca as a means of healing. She shares how her journey began during a tumultuous period in her life. The loss of her mother and the subsequent emotional turmoil drove her to seek solace in alcohol. This struggle with addiction became a catalyst for her eventual decision to explore plant medicine. It was her brother who planted the seed of exploration by introducing her to the idea of ayahuasca. His encouragement, along with some insightful research, eventually led Unju to Peru, where she would undergo her first ceremony. Unju describes her first ayahuasca ceremony as a powerful and life-changing experience. Understanding the structure and ritual of such a ceremony can help demystify the process for those considering this journey. After engaging with ayahuasca, Unju's perception of healing transformed dramatically. Rather than viewing healing as a linear process, she began to see it as a holistic journey of unlearning and self-discovery. Through her experiences, Unju feels a deeper connection to the divine and a sense of gratitude for her life. She now views healing as an ongoing spiral journey rather than a destination. Ayahuasca, of course, represents just one avenue for individuals seeking healing and transformation. And on this podcast, we explore various other modalities as well. Unju's journey highlights the profound insights that can arise from experiences with plant medicine, encouraging others to explore their own paths to healing. If you are considering this journey, remember to approach it with an open heart and an open mind. So please give this episode a listen. And if it resonates with you, please like it, please share it, please subscribe. And as always, thanks for listening. Unju Man, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Thank you, Peter. It's an honor to be here.

Death As A Teacher Of Meaning

Peter Kolakovic 3:33

It's an honor to have you as a guest. So I wanted to start with a quote from a book that I discovered earlier today. I haven't actually read the book. And it's by someone named Gerard Armand Powell. Okay. Who I understand was a wealthy, very wealthy, but also deeply unhappy man, struggling with severe addictions and even suicidal thoughts, until he had a transformative experience with plant medicine, in this case ayahuasca, which he says saved his life. He says that the spiritual journey allowed him to heal his past, reconnect with his soul, and achieve a lasting sense of internal peace. So he wrote a book to help others find their own healing through ayahuasca. The title of the book is A Story of Sex, Drugs, and Ayahuasca. And here's a just a very short quote from the book, and I'd like to get your reaction to it. So Mr. Powell writes, I was afraid that after drinking ayahuasca and experiencing death, that I would get reckless and careless. But the exact opposite happens. It appears that death is what gives life its meaning. How does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Death is what gives life meaning. I've had a similar experience with like not with ayahuasca, but what I did where I did experience death with another medicine. And after that experience, I kind of felt like life felt I felt safe. I felt free because I knew where I was going after this human experience. I didn't take it as seriously anymore.

Peter Kolakovic 5:33

It makes perfect sense. And if I may ask, if I may probe a bit deeper, you said, you know, you knew where you were going. Can you describe that place?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

So this experience was with a different medicine called Buffau. And the experience was it's a knowing that I had like during the experience, it's just it's like I was going to a void, and then I just became one with everything. And it's a knowing that I have that I'm gonna have that experience when I dropped this human body and it was just pure bliss and pure love. Just it was like returning to God's love, really. So and when I have to that experience, it's just everything's just so beautiful.

Peter Kolakovic 6:24

Indeed.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Everything that's happening in life and in our day-to-day, our challenges, everything is it's happening for our liberation to return us to God's love.

Peter Kolakovic 6:40

Right. So, you know, many people increasingly are seeking out different forms of of plant medicine,

Suffering As The Turning Point

Peter Kolakovic 6:50

including Mr. Powell, whose uh whose work I just quoted there. What is it that, you know, what specific life life events or realizations do you think typically lead individuals to seek out, you know, experiences with ayahuasca and other plant medicine?

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Well, I can speak to my own experience. When I was searching, reaching for something, it's because of suffering, really, for me. I was going through a really difficult time. And life wasn't really making sense to me anymore. I was I was drinking a lot, I was uh struggling, just didn't want to feel the pain that I was going through. My mom had passed away. I was working full time, but after work, every day, it's like I would go on autopilot and I would go to the liquor store and pick up, pick up a bottle of wine, right? And I drank a bottle of wine every night, made some good food, and would just dance. And I'm like, okay, tomorrow I'm gonna feel better and I'm not gonna do this. But I was just on autopilot, I was really struggling. It was like I was just, it was just like I was addicted, right, to alcohol, marijuana, the suffering. And then my brother is the one that planted the seed in my mind about medicine. This was uh quite some time ago, and my brother asked me to go to Peru with him. And at this point, I had, you know, I I wasn't in therapy or anything like that, but I wanted to feel better. And I went to Peru with my brother, and that's that's where I did ayahuasca, and that changed my life. But it was because of suffering. It was because I wanted to make a change and understand myself, break the cycles that I was stuck in as well, the patterns. And understand myself. Like, why was I feeling like this?

Peter Kolakovic 8:56

You know? Right, right. So was there something about this particular path that, you know, you felt this was the right path for you rather than, you know, whatever it is, therapy or, you know, other healing modalities? What was it about plant medicine in particular? Obviously, you had this invitation from your brother, but you know, many people are hesitant to even think about considering these types of of medicine. So what was it for you that you know spurred you to take that risk and and go to Peru?

SPEAKER_01 9:31

Actually, Peter, I did misspeak. I was, I I had just started therapy at this point as well. Okay. Um, and I had started therapy, but I was on antidepressants. And I wasn't feeling any better. And my brother, it's not like I just, you know, he called me and we went to Peru. He kind of planted the seed in my mind. And he told me, like, okay, like, you know, I'm planting the seed. Here's a book. And he gave me a, I don't remember, it was a actually DMT the spirit molecule. He told me to read that book. And after that, he sent me a bunch of talks by Terrence McKenna about Graham Hancock. He would just keep sending me documentaries and papers and YouTube videos. And it took about maybe 10 months or so, and I'm like, okay, I'm ready. And that's that's kind of like when I went to Peru with him.

Peter Kolakovic 10:25

So it was basically, you know, doing your homework and and reading these these different books and listening to these talks that that gave you a sense of confidence that this was the right path for you?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Is that is that Yes, and just hearing every like you know, so many stories from other people that have received healing from these experiences.

Peter Kolakovic 10:46

Okay.

Healing As Unlearning And A Spiral

Peter Kolakovic 10:48

So on that subject of healing, you know, ayahuasca journeys and and other plant medicine journeys are many people have described them as very significant transformative experiences. So how do you think one's perception of healing evolves before and after such an experience?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

For me, my perception of healing really changed. I wasn't trying to, I didn't have the fix-it mentality anymore. It became more of a holistic like process where I'm just trying to understand and embrace wholeness and into integration. Healing now for me, it's it's more like unlearning and remembering who I am. It's not linear and it's an ongoing journey. I'm never going to arrive at a place where I'm healed. It's it's an ongoing journey.

Peter Kolakovic 11:45

Okay. I I think you said learning and remembering who I am. So who are you?

SPEAKER_01 11:52

For me, it's uh just love, pure love. Just going back to connecting with myself and just remembering that I came from love and I'm gonna return to love. And this journey, I've been on this journey now for about I think I did ayahuasca the first time in 2015. So it's been about a decade.

Peter Kolakovic 12:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

It's been a long journey. It's been up and down, it has not been linear. You know, I'll go back and revisit certain experiences and see deeper truths. It's kind of like maybe you've heard this before, they say it's like a spiral, right? Like the healing tree, it's like a spiral, but it's like an upward spiral. So it's like a spiral, but your your consciousness and your awareness is getting higher slowly, and you're looking at things from a different perspective, you know? And for me, like the past 10 years, now getting to this point where I am today, I just feel so close to God. And yeah, just the backdrop for me and my day-to-day is just gratitude, just for this beautiful human experience.

What A Ceremony Looks Like

Peter Kolakovic 13:04

You mentioned journeys, spiritual journeys, I I presume you're you're referring to. So for those unfamiliar with intense spiritual work, how would the core essence of an ayahuasca journey be described in your in your words, in your experience?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Like what is it like to mean like an ayahuasca experience?

Peter Kolakovic 13:27

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

So from uh you know, there's so many different retreats all over the world from my experience. Uh, they the ones I've attended, they're usually between 20 to 25 people. And you're sitting in a circle, and there's usually one to two shamans and a few helpers that are gonna help the participants to get up, you know, help them to the washroom and things like that. And it's very ritualistic. There's an opening of the circle, everyone gets saged with polisanto or sage. There's usually drumming and singing, and it's done in the dark, it's done at night after the shaman opens the circle, calls in spirit guides. Each person goes up to the shaman in the middle of the circle and drinks a cup of ayahuasca. And each individual will go up one at a time. So, you know, if you're doing 20 or 25 people, that can take some time. Everyone drinks a cup. Then the shaman also drinks the ayahuasca, the helpers do as well. And then uh they blow out the candles and you wait. It could take up to 30 to 45 minutes for the medicine to kick in. And then the shaman starts singing, there's drumming, and the ceremony starts and people start connecting with the medicine. You would know that you know the ceremony started because people are sometimes puking, like vomiting or crying. And that lasts about four to five hours. After two hours, a shaman will call for for a second cup. And if you want to go deeper into your experience, you can go up for a second cup. It's it's pretty magical, but uh, it can be really intense too. Some people have some pretty powerful experiences. Yeah. And after the four or five hours, the circle is closed.

Peter Kolakovic 15:36

So for those who don't have any prior experience with ayahuasca, what does it taste like and and is it safe?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

It tastes like uh there's so many different types of brews, depending on where the medicine comes from, right? Usually it tastes, for me, it tastes a little bit like molasses and chocolate and coffee. It can be really grindy too, if you get the bottom of the batch. I feel it is safe as long as it's done in a safe container with people that are experienced.

Peter Kolakovic 16:15

Okay.

Psychedelic Renaissance And Safe Retreats

Peter Kolakovic 16:16

Well, let's talk a little bit about that container. Let's talk about the retreat experience, dive into that in a little bit more depth. You referred earlier to Terence McKenna, the American ethnobotanist, mystic, lecturer, and leading advocate for for psychedelics. And I've got a quote from him here that I'd also like to get your reaction to. So he wrote in one of his books, and I believe he's written a few. God is a lost continent in the human mind. That continent has been rediscovered in a time of great peril for ourselves and our world. Is this coincidence, synchronicity, or a cruelly meaningless juxtaposition of hope and ruin? How does that land with you?

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Well, the way the world is right now, there's so much going on, you know, so much, so much, there's pretty lot of heavy, heavy things going on in the whole world. And right now, at the same time, it's like there's this psychedelic renaissance that's going on, right? And I feel ayahuasca wants to come out of the jungle now. And that's why there's so many retreats popping up and circles popping up all over the world, because now's the time for humanity to wake up to and raise the consciousness of the earth and of the world.

Peter Kolakovic 17:53

On that topic of heavy things, I think many people would agree that there is more anxiety today, more depression today than perhaps ever there has been. So, in in what ways do you think these structured retreat environments, which you've referred to, provide a safe space for addressing these long-standing emotional challenges like anxiety and depression and related issues?

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Well, going to a retreat, doing any type of plant medicine, whether it's ayahuasca or mushrooms or anything really, right? They're tools, just like anything, like like therapy or yoga or breath work. I believe they're not the answer, right? So they do help. I've I've used to help at ceremonies. I've seen, you know, I've uh, you know, hundreds of people, hundreds of ceremonies. I've seen witness miracles, I've seen old people overcome, you know, really heavy, heavy trauma and experiences. You're going there with the intention to get some kind of healing or work through something, to let go of something.

Purging And What It Can Release

Peter Kolakovic 19:11

So you you mentioned earlier vomiting, which, you know, I mean some people will hear that and and think, well, that's you know, how is that how is that related to healing? That doesn't sound like healing at all. It it sounds like the polar opposite of healing. So, and you know, I understand that vomiting is is often referred to as purging during an ayahuasca ceremony. So, what does it mean to purge and why is it an important part of the experience?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

Right. So you're absolutely right when I'm you know out and people are talking about ayahuasca. People are like, oh, I could never do that. I don't want to vomit, I don't want to vomit, I don't want to purge, right? But it's a huge part of the experience because the way it's looked at in the ceremony and shamanism, purging is letting go of something. It's usually some, it's letting go of like trauma. This one shaman that I worked with, she used to say, like, after you purge, look into your bucket and ask, what is this? And and you'll get the insight like of what you've just let go, like what experience you just puked, what trauma you just puked. So it's like removing emotional blocks that are held in your body.

Peter Kolakovic 20:35

Okay, interesting. So I mean, I have to ask you, since you just you know described that that scene so vividly when you looked into the bucket the first time, or you know, whenever that advice was given to you, what did you see?

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Okay, so for me, it was abandonment because I carried an abandonment wound from my childhood. And I'm sure you know that purging, it's not just vomiting, it's also going to the bathroom. That's another way participants purge in an ayahuasca ceremony. It's through sweating, obviously crying, right? I that's I'll share one of my experiences with you when I was in Peru in my second, second ceremony. I was having really, really bad cramps during my ceremony, and I kept getting visuals of my stomach. And and I was in a lot of pain, and I I was knocking on the floor on the floor, and two of the shamans came over, and they kind of put me on my side, and they were just telling me to focus on my breath. That's usually what you know we tell everybody, because your breath is your anchor. Just focus on your breath, it's gonna pass, right? And I kept getting visuals of my stomach. And it's just annoying when you're in uh for someone who's never had an experience. I know it sounds super abstract, but it's just annoying. Knowing that you have like this is my stomach, right? And I was seeing the inside of my stomach, and I was seeing like all these blocks in my stomach. And the knowings that I was getting was this is despair, this is grief, this is sadness, this is abandonment. And they were all like just like just black tar in my stomach, in my intestines.

Peter Kolakovic 22:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

The reason I was getting cramps was because they were moving. Because that's what I like the medicine was in my body, and now all these emotions that were stuck in my stomach were all slowly loosening up and moving. And I was watching this in my vision, like all these little, it's like tar just coming together, and it came turned into a big ball. And I remember looking down at my stomach, and there was like this big ball moving through my stomach. And then I had to purge. And I ran to the bathrooms and I purged, and I felt like I lost 20 pounds.

Peter Kolakovic 23:08

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

It was yeah, it was pretty wild. I felt like such a different person the next morning. And the third ceremony after that, like the next night, I was in the jungle and I was having a visual of myself in the jungle. And I was walking to the jungle, and it was a completely different experience, right? Like I was so calm, I was outside, it was lush. And these two there was these two leaves that opened up and there was a new stomach in there.

Peter Kolakovic 23:42

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah. So it's like I got a transplant. Okay. Because I remember when I came back and I would go to you know, gatherings and people would talk about their experiences, and people would ask me, Did you get any gifts from the jungle? And I'm like, Oh my god, I did. I got a new stomach.

Peter Kolakovic 24:04

A new stomach. Wow, that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yeah.

Peter Kolakovic 24:07

Well, thank you so much for for sharing that that personal anecdote and and for sharing your vulnerability as well. That's that's a really profound uh anecdote that you shared. Thank you, Angia. I so you know, I will be honest as well. I I have had one experience, one journey with uh with ayahuasca a few years back. I won't say where it was, but so going and and I've had some experience with other plant medicines, but ayahuasca just the one time, and for me it was a very, very challenging experience. Because I had read about it beforehand and and I heard about the purging, and I was determined not to purge going into this experience.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Like you can control it.

Peter Kolakovic 24:55

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, that was my mindset going in. You know, probably probably was not the best mindset to take into this experience because, you know, as as you've said very clearly, it is part of the experience. And but you know, I I've never not that anyone enjoys the experience of vomiting, but I I certainly did never enjoyed it and did not want to experience that in that state. So as a result, I think, and perhaps some other factors as well, I I had a very, very challenging journey. Where with other plant medicines such as uh psilocybin, it was definitely much lighter. And I don't want to say easy, but perhaps yeah, lighter is is a better way of framing it. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, it just goes to to the point about the importance of purging as as part of the process with ayahuasca in particular, it seems, because I did not have that that experience with with mushrooms at all.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

I mean, you're right, purging is a huge part of the experience. In fact, when I used to help in ceremonies, a lot of individuals wouldn't connect until they purged. They wouldn't connect with the medicine until it's kind of like, okay, she's here. She's gonna start you, this is when the work is gonna start. It's like once like it's like she's in you now, and you just like remove some kind of block or something and you connect. I've seen that. I've experienced that myself too, but that used to happen a lot during ceremony.

Peter Kolakovic 26:30

Right, right.

Memory Breakthroughs And Mother Ayahuasca

Peter Kolakovic 26:31

So are there any other, you know, examples of of sort of profound breakthroughs that you don't mind sharing?

SPEAKER_01 26:41

I've had quite a few. I had one experience where, so as I was sharing, I had my parents left me in India when I was a baby, when I was 11 months old. And I came to Canada when I was five. And my whole life, my very first memory of being alive, my first memory of existing, being myself, was always on a plane coming to Canada. Like I didn't have any memories before that. So I always, you know, my whole entire life, that's the earliest memory I had was being on a plane coming to Canada with one of my uncles that had picked me up. And I was walking down the middle of the plane aisle just as a five-year-old, and I was terrified. And then in 2000, like back in 2019, I had an experience where I did ayahuasca, and that whole five-hour journey, I don't know how like she unlocked a certain part of my brain, and I got all of my memories from being an 11-month-year-old baby to being five years old. In those five hours, I lived that entire time. Like I had all my experiences from like being a baby in India with my grandparents. I I even had the memory of them getting me ready to take me to Indra Gandhi airport. You know, it was that was probably one of my profound, most profound experiences. And I remember the next day, I just I was speeches. I couldn't even talk. Like I felt like I just came from India. I was just listening five hours.

Peter Kolakovic 28:29

When you say she unlocked your brain, who are you referring to?

SPEAKER_01 28:35

I'm referring to ayahuasca. She's referred to as a feminine plant, the mother. A lot of people call her the mother or the madre, because she is to me, my understanding, what I've come to understand for myself, she is the spirit of the earth. She's the mother. She's the mother energy. So that's why I refer to her that way.

Peter Kolakovic 28:58

Okay, interesting. So thank you for sharing that that experience as well. So, Anju, you mentioned earlier that in addition to having your own experience with with plant medicine with ayahuasca, that you also assisted at these ceremonies with with shamans and and other facilitators.

The Shaman’s Role In The Room

Peter Kolakovic 29:23

So I'm I'm just wondering if you can speak a little bit about to the role of a shaman during these journeys. You did mention that the shaman also drinks the brew. Right. And and for you know, the remaining five or six hours, uh I think you mentioned five hours, what what is the shaman doing? What is his or her role? And and can it be a man? Can it be a woman? Does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 29:51

I have helped at you know, where the shaman has male, female, I don't it doesn't matter. Sometimes there's two. There's a male and a female.

Peter Kolakovic 30:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

Right. And the shaman does drink the medicine, and so do the helpers as well. During the ceremony, the shaman is singing. The shaman is uh has their drum, their drumming. They go sometimes they go to each individual and and sit in front of this individual and sing to the individual. Just because you have to remember the medicine's working through the shaman, right? So the shaman has one foot in this reality and one foot in the spiritual world, and they're being guided by ayahuasca. So the shaman will all of a sudden get up and go sit in front in front of someone who's having a really difficult time, and they'll know what songs to sing to this person to bring up the healing that they need. So I have been to ceremonies where they go to each individual and they'll do that, you know, and they have their tobacco, they're smoking their pipe. They're really being guided by the medicine.

Peter Kolakovic 31:07

And are they drinking the same amount of medicine as the participants, or is it a little bit less?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Is it more it's usually a little bit less because they don't need as much to connect.

Peter Kolakovic 31:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

When someone's when it's someone's first time, the shaman always asks, like, is it anybody's first time? When it's somebody's first time, from my experience, what I've witnessed, they usually need a little bit more for their first time. Interesting.

Surrender Versus Fear And Resistance

Peter Kolakovic 31:35

So I think you touched earlier upon, you know, the significance of of individuals letting go during during these ceremonies and you know, letting go of what doesn't serve them through the purging. So how how does or what is the significance of of letting go during during these ceremonies and how does it impact the overall journey?

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Um letting go, a lot of people refer to it as surrender.

Peter Kolakovic 32:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Letting go, like to to surrender to the medicine. To me, it's the same thing as just trusting the medicine, right? And not fighting the experience. If you fight the experience or resist it, from my experience, it's you you you will have a difficult time. Right? If you usually when we're set, you know, before the ceremony, everyone shares their intention, talks about why they're there. The shaman almost always says, trust the medicine, surrender, let go. And trusting the medicine and surrendering, it's not passive, it's almost like an act of an act of letting go and just a choice to trust and just just trusting the medicine. And it can be hard, right? Like because a lot of times, especially for someone who's new to the healing journey or someone's first time, it can be really unhinging. Like how often do we go into the spiritual world? Not very often, right?

Peter Kolakovic 33:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

So to be in that space, it can be a little unhinging in the like the you know, even like after you've done it so many times, it's a lot of times it's like the first time because no two experiences are the same. So it's it's really important just to stay centered, just to trust. Sometimes we're meeting parts of ourselves that we've been hiding from ourselves and others for a really long time. So it's important just to breathe and just trust.

Peter Kolakovic 33:49

So, based on either your own experience or you know, observing others, when someone is fighting the experience, what does that actually look like? Does it manifest in a in a particular way? Is there a certain pattern that that is repeated?

SPEAKER_01 34:08

From what I've witnessed, it usually manifests in a lot of fear.

Peter Kolakovic 34:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

A lot of fear. Like they usually want someone to come and sit with them and hold their hand.

Peter Kolakovic 34:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Right? Like they'll be like, Undrew, come, can you just hold my hand to stay with me, to stay with me? But that's um they need to go at it on their own, right? Like we can be there with them and hold space for them, but they have to go through the experience on their own.

unknown 34:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

It's usually they're usually having a difficult time. It's usually fear. Sometimes like some people go into so much fear where they're screaming, and we, you know, then the shaman has to come with some tobacco and sing to them and try to calm them down, but it's usually just a lot of fear.

Peter Kolakovic 34:59

Yeah, I th I think that might have been part of my experience as well, because I remember, I remember thinking during the one experience that I had, and and I'll just preface this by saying, you know, just before the experience, I met I met one of the assistants who had mentioned that he had he had participated in 27 ayahuasca journeys throughout his life, and and he was younger than me at the time. And so here I am then, you know, a little bit later on, a few hours later, going through my experience, and I just remember repeating over and over and over again while thinking about him, I am never going to do this again in my life because it was just so challenging. So yeah, that there was definitely some some fear manifesting on my end for sure.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Were you fighting the experience?

Peter Kolakovic 35:54

Yeah, it's it's hard to say. Like even now, it's years later, and I still look back at it, and yeah, I suppose maybe because I had had previous experience with other plant medicines before that. Which, as I said, were lighter, and and this one hit me much differently. It was also the first time that I had undergone a ceremony at night because all the other ones had been during the day, and so that kind of played into the experience as well, and there was just a lot going on in my life, and it wasn't it wasn't what I expected, maybe, and you know, perhaps having those expectations of how it was supposed to play out certainly didn't help me either.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yeah.

Peter Kolakovic 36:40

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Well, absolutely 100%. That's like before you know a ceremony starts, the shaman usually says, like, of course it's difficult not to have any expectations too, especially everybody goes on YouTube and starts looking stuff up and you know, and they want that experience, you know, with flight and love. But you don't know what's gonna happen at the end of the day. Right. Even if you've done ayahuasca like this gentleman that, you know, you you met 27 times, I can tell you from my own experience, every time you do it, it's like the first time again. It's never the same. You don't know what's gonna happen.

Peter Kolakovic 37:24

Right, right.

Integration And Daily Lifestyle Changes

Peter Kolakovic 37:27

So I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about what happens after the ceremony, because I know that integration is an important theme that's emphasized by by many practitioners of of plant medicine. And again, I'll I'll start with uh a quote. This one is from Alexander Sasha Shulgin, who was an American biochemist and pharmacologist, also known as the godfather of ecstasy for popularizing MDMA during the 1970s. And he wrote that what is most important is not the psychedelic experience itself, but what you do with it afterward. How do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 38:18

I agree. It resonates, it really lands. I feel like you know, you have a psychedelic experience, whether it's MTMA, mushrooms, ayahuasca. I always say the real ceremony starts the next day when you're out of the experience. When you take the teachings and insights and you weave them into your life, like with your family and your friends, or when you're stuck in traffic.

Peter Kolakovic 38:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Like your day-to-day, that's that's the real work, right? Like it's uh much easier to take a substance and you know, have a this experience and you know, but then to to really integrate it into your life, that's that takes work. That's the actual work, the day-to-day, making small choices every day, habits to support yourself in a new way of being, checking in on yourself throughout the day, yeah. Choosing that better feeling thought, right? Like written patterns.

Peter Kolakovic 39:26

Well, I I definitely observed after my first experience, and all the subsequent experiences as well. I've you know, I've had a few, not 27, but I've had a few. That one of the things, and and you know, this this whole theme of integration was heavily, heavily emphasized to me by the different guides that I worked with as well. Uh, I did notice that I felt called to make various lifestyle changes, changes for the for the better. Like, you know, I I recall after my first experience, I changed my diet, I started eating much more fruits and vegetables, I started drinking a lot more water, I realized how dehydrated I was for so many years. I started dipping my toes into yoga and meditation and related disciplines, so exploring different lifestyle changes that would hopefully make me a better person that would help me live my best life, which is the theme of this podcast. So yeah, I'd like to get your perspective on how the insights gained during an ayahuasca retreat, how you think they translate into actionable long-term lifestyle changes. What is your experience?

SPEAKER_01 40:49

My experience is very similar to yours. When I started working with plants, I started taking much better care of myself. I was taking pretty good care of myself as it was, but more fruits, more vegetables. I started, I didn't start meditating right away, but in the mornings, I would take, you know, 10, 15 minutes just to sit in silence or to pray. I find myself just, you know, in the grocery store, I'll be praying. Just whenever I have a moment, I'll pray. Yeah, and just checking in on myself, being much more kinder to myself, giving myself lots of grace. I started journaling. That's been pretty significant for me. Uh I do a gratitude journal before bed. That's the most, I think that's probably one of the most important times to uh express gratitude to uh because the way I look at it is like when we're going to bed, we're gonna marinate in those thoughts for the next eight hours. So I think right before bed, it's important to get yourself into that space where you're connected to your heart, you know, and just really thinking about all the things that are like all your blessings, you know, what we're like today, right? Because it's it's better to marinate in that than something else.

Peter Kolakovic 42:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

Yeah. So I remember this this one shaman. She used to say during an ex like plant medicine experience. I'm sure you've heard this a lot of people say you're shedding, right? Like you're letting go of a lot. Like you're shedding, like the way a snake sheds a skin, right? So when a snake sheds sheds his skin, he doesn't go in the sun for a few days. He lays low, right? And he's on his own to kind of like let his teachings land, like to kind of he's raw, right? So after a plant medicine ceremony, it's like maybe don't listen to the news right away. You know, maybe take a day off and just be in nature, listen to some nice music, like really take care of yourself. Because you just let go of some like a lot, probably, and you don't even know it sometimes.

Peter Kolakovic 43:05

That's uh it's really interesting. There was a lot that you said there that really resonated with me because of my own experience with ayahuasca. In fact, the the exact advice that I received after my experience from the shaman was to start a daily gratitude practice. Yeah. And that was a number of years ago, and I've and I've been doing it since that time, and and like you, it's it's something that I do right before going to bed because in fact, the the advice for me was to was to do it twice a day, first thing in the morning and and last thing before bed. And I've been very consistent with the last thing before going to sleep. And lately I've been trying to do a little prayer in the morning as well. So that was one thing that that really resonated. And yeah, in terms of lifestyle changes, avoiding the news, that was one thing that I did for about six months after that. ayahuasca journey. And I can tell you, it did absolutely it did wonders for my mental health. And it's really something that I need to start doing again.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. Just to speak to the gratitude practice. I find it's such a beautiful way to live. You know, just to be in gratitude. And it and when when you start practicing it in the morning and like, you know, like you're doing in the evening too, it's always for me, from my experience, it's kind of like always in the backdrop now. Like it's just always there. It's just, it's like a state of being for me all the time. And it's it's just such a beautiful way to live just being gratitude all the time. It's a beautiful practice, beautiful medicine.

Peter Kolakovic 44:46

For sure, for sure. You mentioned, you know, just I think you said being in line at the grocery store and saying a little prayer of gratitude or saying a prayer. So I'm I'm wondering if you don't mind sharing, you know, in in those prayers, what are you what are you expressing?

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Usually gratitude. Like so when I go to the you're gonna laugh like when I go to the grocery store, I'm just I walk in and I'm when at the entrance of my grocery store, like you're in the produce section right away, right? And I walk in and I'm just in awe of all these fruits and vegetables from all over the world. Like I'm just thinking like that and I'm just like all the families from all over the world that have planted seeds, watered these beautiful plants, you know, taken care of the harvest picked these picked these you know fruits and veggies and they put then another some somebody else put them on a plane and they came here and all I got to do is pick it up and throw it in my basket. Like how blessed am I? And just like it just speaks to how connected we all are too just to think like that.

Peter Kolakovic 45:57

So that is a wonderful wonderful insight and yeah as part of my gratitude practice every day one of the things that I do give thanks for every day is all of the abundance in my life including all of the you know healthy and nutritious food that is as you said you know all I have to do is is well I can I can literally walk to the grocery store from where I live and and come home with bags full of healthy nutritious food. And you know I've lived in a number of different countries around the world and I know that that's not the case for many, many other people.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

Hmm we're living in such obviously there's a lot going on you know in the world but like we're so blessed too like to be to have running water to have more more than one pair of hands like all these little things like when you really stop and and think about it like we're living in pretty like abundant times as well.

Safety, Ethics, Preparation, And Best Life

Peter Kolakovic 47:00

For sure for sure so there was one last theme that I wanted to uh explore and I think we've touched upon this a little bit already but uh maybe perhaps in a bit more depth the the safety and the ethics around using ayahuasca and and other plant medicines at these ceremonies so I've I've got again I've got a couple of quotes for you here and these ones are from Stanislav Groff who you may be familiar with he was he is he's he's still alive I believe Czech borne psychiatrist and developer of transpersonal psychology he's done a lot of pioneering research into non-ordinary states of consciousness for healing and self-exploration he's got over 60 years of experience he's a leading expert on psychedelic therapy and the creator of holotropic breath work with which I've tried once and uh was a really fascinating experience. Anyhow, Stangroff wrote on the subject of you know the safety and ethics around this psychedelics used responsibly and with proper caution would be for psychiatry what the microscope is for biology.

SPEAKER_01 48:16

And he also wrote they are powerful tools and like any tool they can be used skillfully ineptly or destructively I think you also mentioned you know ayahuasca and plant medicine in general as a tool so what are your thoughts on on what Stan Groff has to say but um they give you access to parts of yourself that have been hidden from yourself for your like your whole life really like from my experience once I started working with plants and other other psychedelics as well it's like I was peeling away layers of myself and I had memories that came up that I haven't thought about since they happened when I was a child. So they were like deep deep in my psyche like I wouldn't have even discovered them if I didn't start this journey but they're they've been in the background like and running my life you know and it's like when we're when we have a traumatic experience like sometimes it's so painful especially you know for younger it's so painful and it's so difficult to process that we disassociate and we disassociate and it becomes like an unexperienced experience because it's so painful our little nervous systems can't handle it. So it's kind of like we tuck it away in our body somewhere right so psychedelics take us to an altered state now to revisit that experience not to relive it but to revisit it and process it and let it go.

Peter Kolakovic 50:07

Okay. The other part of that quote from Stan Groff dealt with you know how it's used as a tool how plant medicine is used and and the fact that it it you know you need to be I guess it's it's kind of hinting at using it skillfully responsibly safely so you know given the growth of the retreat industry and you know there are many places around the world primarily the Amazon where people often go to partake in these ayahuasca retreats but in fact they can be done they can be done in North America they can be done in Europe there are there are there are ceremonies that are held uh underground and you know there may be people listening that and you know we're not going to mention any you know we're not gonna make any recommendations people will have to do their own homework but you know there are many different options available for people that are curious that have no prior experience and and don't know where to start in terms of you know booking their own retreat. So what advice would you give to individuals who are you know perhaps considering making this journey themselves and they're looking for or they you know they want to ensure that the retreat the center that they are exploring is responsible and safe?

SPEAKER_01 51:32

I would say like you said do your research do your homework read reviews reach out to the retreat center maybe have a video call with them and trust yourself trust your inner knowing I I do think it's better to do ceremonies that aren't you know too big. That way you get a little bit more uh support because I've heard there's some places where they'll have ceremonies and there's like 80 people in a ceremony with maybe four or five facilitators. That sounds heavy like 80 people having you know medicine and having you know going through a process at the same time and there's only four people to support them to me that sounds like there's an imbalance there I would say 20 25 people max in a ceremony. Right okay but yeah do your research trust yourself read some reviews okay so do your research is is the bottom line.

Peter Kolakovic 52:48

Yeah for sure what about you know the physical and mental preparation that one you know you think or that you would recommend that one undertake before going into this work I know that you had mentioned doing a lot of research reading you know the books of Terence McKenna and others are there specific things or practices or you know dietary or lifestyle changes you think are recommended for people going into a first journey?

SPEAKER_01 53:22

Yes definitely I I feel create some space in your life uh just to if you're gonna go and and have an experience with plant medicine or any kind of psychedelic spend some time alone just in silence maybe doing some journaling reflecting on why you want to work with with with a psychedelic setting an intention on what you want to learn in terms of dietary or lifestyle changes definitely cut out any other substances marijuana alcohol eat vegetarian for a few weeks usually the retreat centers that I've gone to they say for about two weeks beforehand cut out beef only eat organic chicken if you're gonna eat chicken and lots of fruits and vegetables and refrain from any sexual activity cut back on the news spending time in nature prayer but creating some space in your life stillness okay very good advice thank you Anju just one last question for you it's the same question that I ask all of my guests what does it mean to you since the the theme of this podcast is you know my best life and what it means to live one's best life what does it mean to you to live your best life and and related question how do you think ayahuasca or other plant medicines can assist someone in in living their best life I feel plant medicines, ayahuasca can assist someone in living their best life because just because they can help you get into alignment with who you really are and to work through any blocks that you may have connect you to the love that you have in your heart and make you more conscious so you're making conscious choices. So you're being honest with yourself create room for joy. For me living your best life really means living in alignment living in truth and living in integrity.

Peter Kolakovic 56:06

So when I say integrity to me like integrity is being integrated as a human being integrating all parts of yourself the messy parts the the parts that are difficult to love like loving all of yourself and making choices from that whole place an integrated place Anjumen thank you so much for joining me on this podcast today I I sincerely appreciated all of the wonderful insights that you've shared I appreciate the the personal anecdotes the vulnerability and the advice also to others it's well again just thank you so much for for sharing all of your perspectives.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Thank you Peter